The Opposite Sex--and How We REALLY Feel About Breasts
Thought this blog title might get your attention. Here's the story.
I was invited to a writers' group four years ago--shortly after I signed my first contract as a novelist, and well into my career as a book editor. The writers read aloud and I was supposed to offer "an editor's critique." One man, a doctor actually, read from his novel. The heroine was a nurse. And the book was, simply put, awful. Most of all it was awful because he inserted every stereotype of a nurse--and women--possible. I felt sorry for any women who ever had to work a shift with him. The heroine, at one point, from her point of view . . . thought this: "Becky looked down at her ample bosom and smiled with satisfaction at how they looked in her uniform."
Okay. About there, I wanted to spit out my coffee. Better yet, I wanted to spit it out ON HIM (though I had this weird feeling he might like that). I said, and I quote, "We don't think about our breasts that way." He said, "I think most women do. They like to show them off." I glanced about the room and asked for a show of hands of women . . . and of COURSE no one raised her hand. We don't think about our "bosoms." Ample or otherwise.
This is the problem with choosing a protagonist of the opposite sex. I have a very "male," assertive personality. I am all female, but I like to play poker, drink martinis, and I love to laugh loud and long and just can hang with a bunch of guys and watch football or boxing. I hate cooking, the PTA, and anything that sort of feels "female," and it's been a good ten years since I wore a dress. Now, I realize I am stereotyping typical "man vs. woman," "Mars vs. Venus" stuff, but the fact is most of us will acknowledge there are often fundamental differences between the sexes. Most of us are somewhere along the spectrum.
If you are going to write from the POV of the opposite sex, you better know what you're doing lest women chuck the book across the room and men give up in disgust. According to surveys, men think about sex about every 30 seconds or so. So, while they may be looking to get laid a lot, they don't necessarily think about how their ass looks in a pair of jeans. And gay men and women are yet another nuanced portrayal, just as I think it is important when writing a character of a different race or religion to acknowledge those struggles. We may be a melting pot, and there may be equality (though that's debatable), but in actuality, there are differences between us.
For the record, I don't think about my bosom except to be aggravated when bra shopping or trying to exercise. For the additional record, pay attention when you write from the opposite sex. As Jude was trying to in the last set of comments (previous post), getting inside the head of the other gender can be really difficult.
Anyone care to take this subject on?
I was invited to a writers' group four years ago--shortly after I signed my first contract as a novelist, and well into my career as a book editor. The writers read aloud and I was supposed to offer "an editor's critique." One man, a doctor actually, read from his novel. The heroine was a nurse. And the book was, simply put, awful. Most of all it was awful because he inserted every stereotype of a nurse--and women--possible. I felt sorry for any women who ever had to work a shift with him. The heroine, at one point, from her point of view . . . thought this: "Becky looked down at her ample bosom and smiled with satisfaction at how they looked in her uniform."
Okay. About there, I wanted to spit out my coffee. Better yet, I wanted to spit it out ON HIM (though I had this weird feeling he might like that). I said, and I quote, "We don't think about our breasts that way." He said, "I think most women do. They like to show them off." I glanced about the room and asked for a show of hands of women . . . and of COURSE no one raised her hand. We don't think about our "bosoms." Ample or otherwise.
This is the problem with choosing a protagonist of the opposite sex. I have a very "male," assertive personality. I am all female, but I like to play poker, drink martinis, and I love to laugh loud and long and just can hang with a bunch of guys and watch football or boxing. I hate cooking, the PTA, and anything that sort of feels "female," and it's been a good ten years since I wore a dress. Now, I realize I am stereotyping typical "man vs. woman," "Mars vs. Venus" stuff, but the fact is most of us will acknowledge there are often fundamental differences between the sexes. Most of us are somewhere along the spectrum.
If you are going to write from the POV of the opposite sex, you better know what you're doing lest women chuck the book across the room and men give up in disgust. According to surveys, men think about sex about every 30 seconds or so. So, while they may be looking to get laid a lot, they don't necessarily think about how their ass looks in a pair of jeans. And gay men and women are yet another nuanced portrayal, just as I think it is important when writing a character of a different race or religion to acknowledge those struggles. We may be a melting pot, and there may be equality (though that's debatable), but in actuality, there are differences between us.
For the record, I don't think about my bosom except to be aggravated when bra shopping or trying to exercise. For the additional record, pay attention when you write from the opposite sex. As Jude was trying to in the last set of comments (previous post), getting inside the head of the other gender can be really difficult.
Anyone care to take this subject on?
posted by Erica Orloff at 2:10 PM
37 Comments:
The guy walked out of the room alive???? Tell me he was at least a bit beaten up, please!
I'm writing a novella right now, in strictly male POV. This is an experiment, since I typically write from female. I keep thinking "Are guys really like that?" Then I forge on, while thinking about switching to omniscient.
I know it's hard, which is part of the reason why I'm doing this.
I wouldn't touch the subject it if it was a 38D. Don't shoot, I'm not serious. I find it hard as a male, not pun intended, to put myself into the role of a female. It's always good to get someone of the opposite sex to take a look and give a critique.
Excuse my fumbling fingers, they have a mind of their own.
Milady:
He apparently was an unteachable writer--I think the group was so used to him being a windbag, they just didn't even try anymore (it was an open group at a community center), but yeah, I wanted to slug him one--and I'm a Buddhist! LOL!
I actually have had a couple of women readers write my website that they like my books but my female characters are hard to relate to because they are so "different." They're often very strong, very "male" in some ways . . . and raised in streetsmart, tough girl fashion.
E
Steve:
Laughed out loud at your comment. :-) I figured I'd get a lot of double entrendres with this one.
And yes, a great idea about critique partners. I've had my male critique partners a couple of times tell me men aren't as tender as I sometimes make them out to be.
E
Hmm. I don't know about MOST women, and I'm not trying to defend the writer's group hack in question here, but I know that A LOT of women are very conscious about the appearance of their breasts. That's why augmentation surgery is so popular. Personally, I don't give a hoot about hooters. I think it's a very superficial concern, and I would prefer a woman go with what God gave 'em. It's the same with men and their hair. That's why we have industries like Hair Club For Men and the transplant centers and the snake oil restoration products sold on TV. These industries rake in big bucks, for no other reason than vanity.
I wrote my first novel from a female's POV. Everybody who read it (all five or so) said she seemed like something of a tomboy. LOL. Nothing wrong with being a tomboy, IMO, although that was not exactly my intention. So, yes, it's difficult to write from the opposite sex's perspective. My work in progress isn't from the fifteen year-old girl's POV, but I still need to nail the character through the eyes of my protag.
I better get back to work. :)
One of the worst examples I've read was written by a man who described a woman taking care of personal hygiene issues, as if the experience were hot, sensual and sexy. As we women well know--NOT. I threw the book across the room and have been careful not to purchase another by that author. Argh.
Jude:
I didn't object to her being aware of her breasts. They're there . . . I know it. Men know it. It's that no woman under the age of 95 calls them bosoms, and we just wouldn't think of them in that lingo, light, POV. But yes, both sexes have their vanities.
E
Kate:
OMG . . . I don't want to rip another author here, but my GOD, whoever it was . . . what was he THINKING?!
E
How about:
Becky glanced at her reflection in the window and smiled, happy with the way her nurse's uniform showed off her curves.
Is that better, or just as lame?
Hi Jude:
I'd be more comfortable with that, depending on what kind of person Becky is. BUT, you work in medicine. YOU have busy shifts. Are you thinking about how your rear looks in your uniform? How your chest muscles ripple? Or are you too busy? If Becky was going on a date right after work . . . OK. But I think most nurses are just too damn busy . . . and therein, if THAT'S the kind of gal Becky is, OK, but I don't know if she reflects the majority or represents her field well. So it depends, you know?
E
Erica- me and my attitude with stay out of this one. We'll stay out of trouble this way. : P
OH CRAP. Me and my mc would just pull out our Ruger and shot him.
You're right, Erica. Like any profession, nurses' personalities run the gambit. We like to think of nurses as dedicated professionals who are there to WORK and take care of the patients and are not immediately concerned with their sex appeal, but as an insider I can say that that isn't always the case. I've met plenty of Beckys.
This was an isolated occurance, and not representative AT ALL, but I went on a smoke break with a nurse one time who confided that she recently had breast augmentation. She wanted me to FEEL them, and give my "professional" opinion. I didn't, of course. I told her it wouldn't be appropriate and tried to steer clear of her from then on.
The thing is, as an insider, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that Becky was thinking about how her body looked during her shift.
Before I became a nurse, I never would have believed some of the things that go on behind the scenes. Nurses and doctors are only human and, like I said, the personalities are very diverse.
la:
An Uzi would also work. :-)
E
Remind me to never read anything when la burton and Erica Orloff are in the audience. :)
Oh Jude, You'll have time to run when I reach for the gun. : *
Yikes! I better wear fast sneakers and a Kevlar vest. :)
"...after I tried with the banana but I was afraid it might break and get lost up in me somewhere..."
This is from a very famous novel, written by a man (can anybody guess the novel?). The section this excerpt came from is from a woman's POV.
So, do women really ever get hot, sensual and sexy over fresh produce? Or is this another case of a man projecting his own perversions about what goes on in a woman's mind?
"Becky looked down at her ample bosom and smiled with satisfaction at how they looked in her uniform."
I'd comment on this, but I'm too distracted by my fabulous bosom.
:)
Heather--I HOWLED!!! Hysterical.
E
Jude:
Ummm . . . I can't answer for all women. The thing is . . . there are people who like all kinds of sexual adventures from foot fetishists to . . . I guess vegetable fetishes. But I would think MOST women (not all) would rather go for a bettery-powered something than get into fruit and veggies. And yeah, it sounds like guy projection. Or, more likely . . . do you all ever hear the most amazing story from someone and think, "One day I am going to use that in a book"--I think that is one of those. My friend is a lawyer--a divorce attorney--and once represented a wife who caught her husband with their dog. She was in court to have the divorce move forward, and to my friend's amazement . . . they reconciled right there in court, declared their undying love . . . and he vowed to find a new home for Fido. Truth is ALWAYS stranger than fiction.
E
OMG. When I first moved to Florida, I read a story in the Metro section of The Florida Times Union (Jacksonville's major newspaper) about a guy who got caught doing it with a HORSE. He was arrested for cruelty to animals, and his name was right there in the paper. I always wondered what planet he had to move to in order to escape that sort of extreme embarrassment. Maybe he changed his name or something. I seriously considered moving back to Kentucky where the horses are used for normal things like racing.
Jude . . .
LOL!
This is why, though I have not necessarily encountered one in my own life, I sort of believe in soul mates. There is someone for everyone. Even if that means a horse. ;-)
E
Jude wrote: know that A LOT of women are very conscious about the appearance of their breasts. That's why augmentation surgery is so popular.
EXACTLY. They're DISATISFIED with their appearance, hence the popularity of breast augmentation. Women, for the most part are, no matter how beautiful they are perceived by their mates/SOs/friends. So Becky thinking that she looked great in her nurse's uniform (aside: have you watched ER? Nurses' uniforms are scrubs. Big, elastic pants, loose shirt; nothing sexy about them at all) doesn't strike other women as REAL. It strikes us as being a man's porn star fantasy. IF anything, Becky would be thinking how AWFUL she looked in her nurse's uniform. THAT is real.
karm:
I am "fortunate" in that I have been near death from Crohn's disease. I went into the hospital about 13 years ago underweight on my five foot ten frame by a good 20 pounds. I gained about 80 pounds from medications in less than a month. All of a sudden, I had this bird's eye view of the two dispatate ends of the weight spectrum. I was also hooked up to TPN and during my second pregnancy never ate real food--just the tube stuff. While this can sound awful, the Buddhist in me sees a real spiritual progression. One, food has no relationship to me. I eat to live. It's that simple. I neither derive pleasure from it nor hate it. It's something I give up for a tube or Ensure when I am sick, and I cannot have "attachment" to it. The second benefit was I had always felt some sense of self-worth from being tall with a Playboy build--and in the course of 30-60 days of illness, it was gone. Poof! So where do you derive self-worth from then? My eyes were slits in my face, which was puffed up from meds. No window to the soul . . they were . . . hidden. So my self-worth became something bigger and more wonderful in some ways. AND, I became (pardon the long-winded post here) acutely aware of the language of most women. They hated something about themselves. Hips, legs, too flat, too chesty, hair too frizzy, too straight . . . it was this astounding insight into women's insecurities!
E
I agree that 'bosom' was a lame word choice (ultimately no worse than the zillions of romance novels that still have H's referring to their 'throbbing male member') but I also agree with Jude, phrased differently, the line would work if the intent was to show a stereotype. Much as we don't want to believe it, there are woman out there who think in those terms and the multi-million dollar implant business proves this.
It is a good idea to get male input on a male character, cop input on a cop...and so on, but talking to one or even a dozen doesn't mean you can accurately define the gender or profession in a way that will please everyone. When it comes right down to it, in fiction the characters are fictional, so provided there is enough truth in their 'maleness' or 'femaleness' they can be exaggerated and still enjoyable. IMO
I haven't found mine yet either, Erica, but I definitely belive in soul mates.
Gee. I hope mine's human. :)
lainey:
Excellent point. And it all is wrapped up in the vague term of "organic" . . . or three-dimensional. Do you suspend your questioning mind for the time you are reading and get into the world created by the author without pausing to go . . . huh?
E
Karmela:
A lot of nurses wear scrubs, but I still see plenty in form-fitting uniforms. One nurse I know (she's in her forties and has a body any young model would envy) even makes her own dresses for work. They're very professional looking, but they do show off her body.
I agree, though, that a lot of people (men and women) are insecure about their appearance. Men probably just don't admit it as often.
Jude wrote: A lot of nurses wear scrubs, but I still see plenty in form-fitting uniforms.
Really??? Where? Which hospitals? I want names and cities, please, not for me of course, but for hubby who wants to know. I'm Filipino-American which exposes me to the nursing community a great deal (I'm related to half-dozen nurses by blood and marriage), plus I have had my share of hospital stays (myself, parents, grandparents) and never has my hubby ever commented on any of the nurses attending to me or my family members wearing anything form-fitting or hot-looking. I probably wouldn't have noticed if they had, but believe you me, hubby would have. And commented on it.
Just stopped in to see what was up. More breasts. Being a male and not able to describe them properly, I'll leave quietly.
I work in a major urban hospital. Maybe "form-fitting" isn't the right term, but I do see women in uniforms (not scrubs) that are cut especially for females. Then again, maybe I'm thinking about that Marcus Welby rerun I saw recently. :)
BTW, the woman I mentioned who makes her own dresses is Filipina. I work with LOTS
How did that happen?
I meant to say, I work with lots of men and women from the Philippines.
Why, just this morning I looked down at my ample breasts with the dramatic cleavage in my tight knit pj camisole and thought...I look hot! Then I thought, thank GOD for the hidden attached shelf bra that pushes them up where they used to be naturally.
: )
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What about The Horse Whisperer? Great book! Touching, moving, real.
The Horse Whisperer, the movie. Closups of Robert Redfords crotch and butt. (It certainly didn't do it for me.)
The movie was a huge disappointment and detracted from the emotions generated by the actual book.
Now had the director been female...but then Robert Redford would probably not have been cast for the part.
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