So Does It Start . . .
. . . with a theme?
In the comments of the last post, the point was raised. Do you start with a theme?
As background, a friend was speaking with one of those editors with a pretty huge (in the publishing world) reputation. The kind of uniformly respected editor whom, if you drop the name, people know who it is. And the editor is of the opinion . . . it all starts with a theme.
Now people will line up on both sides of this--vehemently saying it's all entertainment, it's all subconscious, it's all this or it's all that. And realistically speaking, yeah. You can have the Loftiest Theme in the History of Literature, but if your prose sucks, or you fail to entertain . . . then it doesn't matter one iota.
In actuality, NOTHING can be separated in writing. Great character but lousy plot . . . sorry. Do not pass go, do not collect $200 (or a book contract). Great plot but hollow characters . . . same. By whose definition? Obviously that's subjective.
But the always-brilliant friend of this blog, Mark Terry, posited in his On Writing (and go download it now!) that you advance as a writer. Writer 101 is lucky to stick his commas where they belong. By the time you get to Writing 401, you might be ready to try your luck in the Big Game.
I tend to agree. Because I think where you REALLY get into seeing writing on a whole other plane is when you start thinking of theme, and character arcs, on symbolism, on what you have to say and why you're saying it the precise way you are.
Which isn't to denigrate the writer who says, "I never give it a thought." But I think . . . read enough great works, and most of us (some of us?) realize we should. We should dig deeper, find our theme. Weave the theme, watch the character arc.
The editor in question . . . and MY editors . . . over and over again, they ask. When I did the rewrite for my next book, one thing my editor said, "This was eminently readable. Perhaps TOO readable." Layer in some theme. Layer in some more conflict. I added 100 pages.
So I know this is bound to get writers discussing, arguing, saying "I don't believe it works that way." But I honestly think when you get a certain caliber of editor . . . they think this way. When you reach Writing 401, you start to think this way. Maybe not. I also think as you advance, it all becomes part of a seamless writing whole.
Thoughts?
In the comments of the last post, the point was raised. Do you start with a theme?
As background, a friend was speaking with one of those editors with a pretty huge (in the publishing world) reputation. The kind of uniformly respected editor whom, if you drop the name, people know who it is. And the editor is of the opinion . . . it all starts with a theme.
Now people will line up on both sides of this--vehemently saying it's all entertainment, it's all subconscious, it's all this or it's all that. And realistically speaking, yeah. You can have the Loftiest Theme in the History of Literature, but if your prose sucks, or you fail to entertain . . . then it doesn't matter one iota.
In actuality, NOTHING can be separated in writing. Great character but lousy plot . . . sorry. Do not pass go, do not collect $200 (or a book contract). Great plot but hollow characters . . . same. By whose definition? Obviously that's subjective.
But the always-brilliant friend of this blog, Mark Terry, posited in his On Writing (and go download it now!) that you advance as a writer. Writer 101 is lucky to stick his commas where they belong. By the time you get to Writing 401, you might be ready to try your luck in the Big Game.
I tend to agree. Because I think where you REALLY get into seeing writing on a whole other plane is when you start thinking of theme, and character arcs, on symbolism, on what you have to say and why you're saying it the precise way you are.
Which isn't to denigrate the writer who says, "I never give it a thought." But I think . . . read enough great works, and most of us (some of us?) realize we should. We should dig deeper, find our theme. Weave the theme, watch the character arc.
The editor in question . . . and MY editors . . . over and over again, they ask. When I did the rewrite for my next book, one thing my editor said, "This was eminently readable. Perhaps TOO readable." Layer in some theme. Layer in some more conflict. I added 100 pages.
So I know this is bound to get writers discussing, arguing, saying "I don't believe it works that way." But I honestly think when you get a certain caliber of editor . . . they think this way. When you reach Writing 401, you start to think this way. Maybe not. I also think as you advance, it all becomes part of a seamless writing whole.
Thoughts?
Labels: writing themes
posted by Erica Orloff at 9:56 AM
33 Comments:
I know, for me anyway, even if I don't *consciously* write with a theme, it's *always* there. And it's often the same one.
Hi Amie:
I think it does become seamless after a while. You start watching the words come together and it's there.
I think another way these editors could phrase it is . . . "What are you trying to say with this book?" If the answer is "nothing," well, then the writer may have a different mindset than the editor. Or may be in a different point in their career.
I often tell people I didn't really become a writer until I had something to say.
E
Just what I was thinking. Sometimes I can't put my finger on the theme right away, sometimes it's the first thing I think of. It's an underlying force nonetheless. I think without a theme, a book or piece of writing is somewhat empty.
Can something be "somewhat" empty? I guess that's another post.
Hi Amy:
I am sure there are certain genres, certain books that really are a lot of fun and entertaining without some overarching theme, but I do think it's an entirely legitimate thing for editors to ask you what your theme is.
In fact, one of the things that impressed me the most about my editor for Magickeepers was how many QUESTIONS--deep questions--the editor had.
E
Of my four unpublished novels only the third started with theme. With theme in mind I created the story and plot and I think it is my best overall story thought the theme itself has been the focus of much of the criticism I have gotten for the book.
I think you and Mark are right the novel I am on the last pages of I've been able to weave thing character and plot into one whole though it is still much more a character book than anything else. Great post as always. Your takes always leaving me pondering my approach to writing.
Travis:
Don't get me wrong. Most of my books are very much character-driven. But they're also about character growth, so the theme is usually in there somewhere.
And thanks for the blog compliment. :-)
E
This is a tough one for me. Like many of your posts, I've read it, gone away for a while to think about it, and come back to comment. And my comment is:
I don't know.
Part of me wants to insist a story must have a theme. But I've enjoyed many stories that had little or no theme, just entertaining characters or action. Even high-falutin' stuff often just boils down to "seize the day" or "ain't love something." Some Hemingway stories that I found powerful really didn't say much more than, "you gotta go sometime, you might as well do it in style."
So I guess my answer is: I want everything. All the theme I can get, all the character, all the plot, action, and (last but not least) beautiful language. All of it.
Damn it.
stephen:
Like I've added in the comments here . . . I agree. It's possible to not give a thought to theme, most especially in certain genres. But there's also definitely a place in editing, in once you have an editor or agent, or are crafting a certain kind of book, say, where at some point, you may have to think, "What am I saying here?" "What thing, bigger than the work itself, is here."
Obviously, knee deep in a fantasy book, theme really IS central to what I'm doing. And I have a YA I'm wrapping up in which the theme of obsession wraps all the way through it from the middle ages to today. And how very rarely do we share obsession with another--obsession is too personal.
E
Well, my opinion sort of depends on depends on how one defines theme. For my definition of theme, I fall passionately in the camp that every story needs one. If you don't have an overarching something, then how are you going to know what serves the story and what doesn't? What to write and not to write?
Like you said, every little thing in a story needs a reason for being there.
The theme doesn't have to be a, er, theme per se, (as in a sort of lofty statement about humanity or something) but something akin to it.
And the "theme," whether it be a true one or not, needs to be the fulcrum of the big pivot of the story. (I'm not sure that analogy works out, physics-speaking, LOL.)
A story is a cohesive thing; it's ONE story. It's not a compilation of scenes for entertainment. Even in the less theme-driven genres, the story still has to have ONE spine to hold it all together.
spy:
Really wonderful contribution to the discussion. Yes. At the Altar of Story, you have to know what to let burn in the pyre, and what to save. Moving story forward and serving the theme do that.
Also . . . when it first came out, I found Pulp Fiction (somewhat off topic) really audacious. Now, spiritually, I can't enjoy it. BUT, when it came out . . . I thought what an amazingly bold movie. Funny in spots. Brutal in spots. And then how in the end it was all woven together. But my Dad got into this discussion with me. WAS it a story? Or just interrelated bits of entertainment. After a while and some distance from it as bold filmmaking, I started to wonder and like it a LOT less.
E
Huh. Now you make me want to see that movie over again. I remember bits, but it's been awhile. I have a terrible memory. I do remember, sadly, that I am pretty much pitch perfect with that girl's high voice, LOL. There were a few actors in my circle, and I'd always be doing those lines, LOL.
Well, thanks for the kind shout-out--I'm blushing, really.
I think I have themes. They're all throughout my work whether I put them there on purpose or not.
But...
You can sure go overboard, at least with commercial fiction.
Still...
Here's the thing that always, always, always comes back to me when I write a piece of fiction: Somewhere along the lines I have to ask myself:
What's this about?
Not: A bad guy calling himself the Serpent and gassing people to death has to be stopped.
Or: A terrorist organization gets hold of a genetically engineered virus.
No, what's it about?
The Serpent's Kiss: father's and sons and their legacies is so prominent in this book, which for me is a recurring theme, particularly, what will sons do to live up to their father's reputation or expectations, what will they do to impress their fathers or get their attention. What do fathers' choices do to their sons. That's a big theme and it keeps cropping up in my work.
The Devil's Pitchfork: can we control technology? Is it evil, or just the people who use it? The conflicts between brothers, even if those brothers aren't related.
I'm working on a YA novel and I wasn't entirely sure what this novel was about except, perhaps, fathers and daughters and their complicated relationships, and I think, when it comes to most YA novels, finding your way in the world. And I got to the big climactic part of the book recently and I've been thinking a lot about it, because although I knew what supernatural/mystical thing happens in this Indiana Jones-type story, I wasn't exactly sure how it would play out. And I realized when it did, that we were back to important themes again--how life is about choices, how some people choose to live in the past and can't let go of things that happened to them, that, as a matter of fact, despite being forced to move forward through time, there are people who live in the past, whose lives are totally tied up in an event in their past and in order to actually move forward and live they have to let go of that.
And so now I know what needs to be addressed as I do the rewrite. But there are definitely themes there.
Hi Mark:
I think--and this is just my way of defining it--that in commercial fiction there is your PITCH (man bites dog and saves the world). And there is a deep undercurrent--like you describe.
On the surface of things, Spanish Disco (a comedy) was about a frantic editor trying to beg and coach a sequel out of a reclusive writer. But the deeper theme was her anger that--in a nutshell--people leave. That on an existential level the entire human journey is in one form or another saying GOOD-BYE. It's the ultimate long good-bye. And if you are unfortunate enough to have a short good-bye--to have people leave you too early, it threatens to consume you with grief and anger.
On the surface, The Roofer was about a journalist on the trail of a cold case homicide. But the entire novel was about what IS a family, what do we OWE our family. It was the landmine of father-daughter relationships, and it was about a pair of siblings whose bond bordered on obsession and what does that mean. And it was, at its core, about addicion poisoning Hell's Kitchen, and poisoning the family.
Would I put ANY of that in a pitch. Not a chance. But it NEEDS to be there, I think, if your novel is going to have layers of complexity.
E
Mark:
And P.S. . . . you ARE always brilliant and deserve the shout-out.
E
One of my crit partners asked, "What's the theme of this book?" I had no clue what she meant because it never occured to me to have one. My other two crit partners raised their hands and replied with similar answers. Doggone it, they knew my book better than me. ;-) The one who asked the question wanted to know because she spotted at least two themes running through my story and wanted to know which was the dominant one.
To this day, I don't know if I write with a theme or what it might be. All I know is when I start writing, I start with an idea in mind and hopefully a lessoned learned by the time I get to The End.
Marcia:
My guess is it's there, somewhere . . . something that speaks to you. And as you write another five, ten, fifteen years--as we all keep writing--we'll find our themes changing as we change--or becoming even more pronounced.
Funny . . . THE ROOFER is my grittiest book. But here I am writing a middle-grade fantasy series . . . and the themes are the SAME. Clan, family, relationships, secrets, grief . . . what is our purpose. Why are we here?
E
Great discussion. I'm wondering about the difference between themes and issues. Themes are organic and evolve by themselves because we are who we are - a combination of experiences and beliefs that automatically translate to the page. But addressing issues through fiction is trickier. The line between entertainment while teaching and simply preaching is a fine one. Most of my books have both themes and issues. My first one coming out soon is about the waste of war while the second one is about poaching in Zambia. Big issues but told through action so the reader (I hope) doesn't feel preached to but is left with something to think about at the end of the book. Mind you, only the reader will be able to tell me if I have been successful but at least the editors thought so.
The books I have written without an issue feel thin and flakey and we all read lots of those, which we forget as soon as we finish them. I often feel I have just wasted my time when I read one. These days I tend not to finish them but move on. Life's too short.
Hi Erica:
Here's the actual Hemingway quote I was thinking about yesterday:
There isn't any symbolism. The sea is the sea. The old man is an old man. The boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The shark are all sharks no better and no worse. All the symbolism that people say is shit. What goes beyond is what you see beyond when you know.
In On Writing Stephen King talks at length about theme, concluding with this:
I should close this little sermonette with a word of warning—starting with questions and thematic concerns is a recipe for bad fiction. Good fiction always begins with story and progresses to theme; it almost never begins with theme and progresses to story. The only possible exceptions to this rule I can think of are allegories like George Orwell’s Animal Farm (and I have a sneaking suspicion that with Animal Farm the story idea may indeed have come first; if I see Orwell in the afterlife, I mean to ask him).
But once your basic story is on paper, you need to think about what it means and enrich your following drafts with your conclusions. To do less is to rob your work (and eventually your readers) of the vision that makes each tale you write uniquely your own.
Of course, what Stephen King or Papa Hemingway or an unnamed heavyweight editor or anyone else says about writing is not gospel. It's all opinion, when you get down to it.
To me, the quickest way to sabotage MY stories is to start out writing in service of some theme or another, or to consciously add symbols in the first draft before Story has really gelled. That's not to say another writer might approach the process much differently and perhaps with more success. It's just the only way I know how to work, and I don't think my notions about it are going to change five or thirty books down the line.
Suzanne:
Hmmmm . . . I really hadn't thought about it, but sometimes I do have an issue. A lot of times, it's gay rights. Sometimes it's conspiracy and way (Invisible Girl). But you're very right that you have to beware the preaching/pulpit syndrome.
E
Hi Jude:
As I've said a million times, whatever works.
All I was pointing out . . . was DOES it start with theme? Which is what one editor posits. And ULTIMATELY, if you are LUCKY and GIFTED and TALENTED . . . and LUCKY (!!!) enough to get an editor and get a book contract, it will not be like a Seinfeld episode. You will not, likely, be able to say you're book is about "nothing." Whether you arrive at what your something is DURING, before, or after is immaterial. That's why I phrased it in the form of a question. I do think the longer people write, perhaps (maybe) they start to see some themes emerge,
E
Interesting so far ... so does a great book begin with theme, or end with theme? 'Cause it's in there either way.
About OMATS, Hemingway also said this, "No good book has ever been written that has in it symbols arrived at beforehand and stuck in. That kind of symbol sticks out like raisins in raisin bread. Raisin bread is all right, but plain bread is better. I tried to make a real old man, a real boy, a real sea and a real fish and real sharks. But if I made them good and true enough they would mean many things. The hardest thing is to make something really true and sometimes truer than true."
It's an interesting needle to thread, I think. King was clearly not an allegorical writer -- he was a storyteller, pure and simple. But The Stand is loaded with (somewhat obvious) symbolism and thematic structure.
I think here's where I come at this from ... when you sit down to write something, you've got to ask yourself, "Why am I telling this story, in this way?" If it's purely organic, and you're tapping into some inner register that just happens to be symbolic and thematic, then congratulations. You're a genius. Tolkien once famously observed that he hated allegory in all its forms and protested that anyone could find deeper meaning in LOTR. But, I mean, c'mon, J.R.R., that book could only have been written by someone who had witnessed mechanized world wars, who was lamenting the loss of pastoral life in England, and who was fiercely religious. Did he mean the symbols? Apparently not. But it's there.
So maybe some people come at it beforehand, and other people come at if afterward, and the true maniacs among us are so good, such pure talent, they are unaware they're even tapping into the deeper human condition. But I think that nobody with any background in literature would argue that great books aren't thematic, and that great stories are emblematic of the human condition. I think it's true that most books will never rise to this level, and certainly genre fiction rarely tries, but I also think that Erica has a good point in that the longer we write, the more experienced we are, the deeper our journey is into the meaning of the stories we tell.
JVZ
Erica:
Absolutely. All I'm saying is that for me it does not start with theme. That's not to say my work doesn't have themes or that my recognition of them won't grow as I grow as a writer. I just don't think I could ever start out writing in service of a theme, as you asked in the post here.
I would feel too much like, Shhh! Listen everyone. The Writer has something to say now. To me, the play's the thing, the meat and potatoes, and things like theme and symbolism--if present at all--are the gravy.
Jon:
I think your Tolkien example illustrates what I believe happens much of the time--that teachers and scholars and other readers often assign themes and symbols where none were originally intended. The themes and symbols sometimes emerge in a subconscious, archetypal way, and I imagine some authors roll on the floor laughing when they hear what geniuses everyone thinks they are. I think that's what Hemingway was getting at too.
JVZ:
I bow to you. Yes.
E
Jude:
No offense intended, we look at this differently--100%. That would mean that JRR Tolkien was too stupid, too unaware, to see his own symbolism. That he rolled around on the floor laughing that people found it. Maybe the joke is in not admitting it, but I cannot imagine that the author of Watership Down, for example, or Handmaid's Tale, or LOTR had absolutely no idea that there was symbolism and theme in their works. They may not have sat down and said "Ah ha . . . this is my plan." NEITHER, however, are scholars INVENTING it. Tolkien FAMOUSLY did not want to debate the deeper meaning. Famously. He was reclusive about it and utterly involved in his world--yet his phone number was published and he fielded calls all the time--sometimes in the middle of the night from potheads wondering what The Hobbit really meant. No one THAT brilliant is unaware. They may not wish to address it, but it's also not them sitting there laughing either. For that would be less than honest of them. Jon's extended quote points out the awareness. How it's arrived at--different paths for different writers. But to me the special works, the works that rise above, have something.
E
Erica:
No offense taken. I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone was stupid, LOL.
I can just imagine some college professor referring to my private eye's Airstream camper, for example, as womblike, as some sort of surrogate for the mother he lost at age five, or some such nonsense. I would find something like that amusing. Of course, after I rolled on the floor laughing for a while, I might get up and think, wait a minute, maybe that is what that means.
Love the post and comments as always Erica. I don't start out with a theme. My characters are my first brush with Story. I love character growth, and writing family relationship stories. When Story comes together, hopefully there's magic inside.
Jude:
I agree with your example . . . I mean, in much commercial fiction, the theme is really going to be secondary. Jon and I are working on middle-grades . . . and consequently, there has to be thematic representation, particularly over a trilogy. Also, most commercial fiction isn't "studied" in literature classes at college . . . But even in commercial fiction, like my editor, they want to see themes a lot of times.
E
Hi Ladonna:
I think I start with arcs . . . and the theme emerges.
E
Interesting discussion. Michael Hauge says stories should have themes, but it's better not to know what they are as you're writing the book because then you're more likely to write it too heavily, hitting readers over the head with it. I usually know my theme before I write the book, but I don't think about it as I'm writing for that reason.
Hi Edie:
That makes sense, too . . . you don't want to be heavy-handed.
E
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