Shrink
I once knew a shrink who was quite possibly the most screwed-up individual I had ever met. Engaged something like six times to six different women in two years and never went through with any of the weddings. That kind of screwy. And I used to think, "Who the HELL would go to this person for advice? Who in their RIGHT MIND would lie down on a couch and talk to this guy, who is clearly nuts?" But therein was the answer. Because clearly, some of his patients weren't in their "right mind" and so maybe he was able to get away with it. Or . . . maybe he was really good at what he did (I was never a patient, so I have no idea--not that I am EVER in my right mind) and it didn't MATTER that the man was completely off his rocker in his personal life. I just don't know.
So it was that two days ago, eating lunch at my desk (and thus, effectively not able to type . . .), I instead went blog hopping until I was done eating. Using my mouse, I click, click, clicked away. And there it was. By linking, from this blog, through a series of other blogs, I came upon a woman charging for writing coaching. And she was clearly, like my shrink-friend, a little nuts. She was unpublished, her writing, at least from her site, was . . . I don't know, confrontational or just . . . not quite what I would look for in a writing coach. She had few credits that I could see. And it was the second time in a week that I had found someone like this.
And so I started wondering. What do you look for in a writing coach? In an editor?How do you pick? Can you trust someone who's never published a book before, or whose BEST experience on their resume was editing a newsletter for a local real estate agent? What do you look for in your critique partners? I mean, there are some spot-on beta readers who have never written a complete book before?
So this is a wide open post today. What are your thoughts?
So it was that two days ago, eating lunch at my desk (and thus, effectively not able to type . . .), I instead went blog hopping until I was done eating. Using my mouse, I click, click, clicked away. And there it was. By linking, from this blog, through a series of other blogs, I came upon a woman charging for writing coaching. And she was clearly, like my shrink-friend, a little nuts. She was unpublished, her writing, at least from her site, was . . . I don't know, confrontational or just . . . not quite what I would look for in a writing coach. She had few credits that I could see. And it was the second time in a week that I had found someone like this.
And so I started wondering. What do you look for in a writing coach? In an editor?How do you pick? Can you trust someone who's never published a book before, or whose BEST experience on their resume was editing a newsletter for a local real estate agent? What do you look for in your critique partners? I mean, there are some spot-on beta readers who have never written a complete book before?
So this is a wide open post today. What are your thoughts?
Labels: writing coaches
posted by Erica Orloff at 7:05 AM
30 Comments:
I would be very impressed if an editor-for-hire presented a list of testimonials from clients whose manuscripts eventually sold to legitimate publishers. I've never seen that, though.
I imagine there a scores of scam artists out there posing as experienced bookdoctors, so buyer beware.
I think it's unfortunate that protocol requires individuals not be named. There are at least two "writers" in our midst who charge for critiques, assistance with querying, and the like, and I can't for the life of me figure out why people flock to them, because they have no significant publishing credits or discernable talent.
No, I wouldn't visit a shrink who was himself in need of a couch. I wouldn't pay for the services of an alcohol abuse counselor who couldn't wriggle out of the bottle, or a parenting expert who'd never had a kid. I sure as hell wouldn't hand my manuscript to someone who strung together adjectives or followed "he said" with a long sequence of choreographic gerunds.
I belong to a critique group and I've found that the critiques often fall in line with their writing. If they write well, they critique well.
Critiquing a raw manuscript is hard work too and the ones who do it right also work hard on their own manuscript.
I once went to a writer's conference and met this teacher who said he never reads what he writes. He'd never been published but he was teaching writing? So people were paying him to be a teacher and he didn't even practice the basics such as revision.
Hi Jude:
I've seen that. Good editors are out there.
What I have also seen is . . . writer sells to publisher-I've-never-heard-of, writer's new "business" is advising other writers for pay/hire. I've seen that twice on writer loops I was on, and it was unfortunate . . . I seriously think some people are delusional in this biz.
Stephen:
Wow . . . that has an ominous tone. "In our midst." ;-)
You know . . . I still take on book doctoring from time to time. I ghostwrote something last year and the author had a deal within two months (nonfiction). I have a long list of credits . . . but (the big BUT), I always, always, ALWAYS urge very raw writers to start with a critique group, to not PAY for my services. I.e., I TURN DOWN work for hire. All . . . the . . . time. Because I don't feel it's right, morally, to take someone's money who isn't ready. But I know there are bottom feeders who do.
E
richmond:
See . . . that kind of teacher . . . I don't know. I feel the same way. I just wouldn't want to trust my work to someone who hasn't paid their dues through the process/the biz.
I guess I should also say my feelings are very much dictated by whether someone is PAYING for the service. Beta readers and critique groups are different. But if I am going to pay good money for an edit . . . then I think I would demand some proof the person knows what they are doing.
E
Am I the only one who doesn't have a clue what choreographic gerunds means?
;)
I suppose there are some teachers and book doctors who can't get published themselves who are good teachers and critiquers.
My problem with this is that it's hard to tell, and also, no disrespect to the literary professors of the world, there's a difference between writing well and writing to be published or writing at the published level. (There's probably a difference between writing at the published level and writing in a way that you'll be successful financially, at least in terms of fiction, but if you figure it out, let me know).
I'm not sure all writers could pinpoint this difference either in a critique, but I do think professional writers who critique well might get away from the grammar, spelling, word choice issues and start looking at story structure and presentation, which usually present very difficult problems to solve.
Mark:
In editing, there's always the "developmental editor" who looks at the whole and will pick up the proofreading stuff along the way. And the copy editor who simply isn't paid to look at story structure but IS paid to find all your typos and grammar mess. So professionally, there's a difference.
And I agree . . . I have written some things (my published short stories, YEARS ago) that were literary. That . . . were more about literature. And then there is making a living as a commercial fiction writer. So I agree . . . teaching is a bit different on the university level.
E
I'm not sure I know what a writing coach is. Is it someone who like Stephen says charges for critiques?
Hi ellO;
Yes . . . A writing coach can either charge you to develop your manuscript, or coach you more extensively in some fashion. I think it's really a fancier way of saying developmental editor--though NOW with the advent of technology, I have seen some do actualy internet coaching sessions, like taking a writing master class online.
E
I won't say never but I can't see myself hiring a writing coach and I doubt that I will ever pay someone to edit my work either. I am in tow critique groups with fellow writers I have a core group of three avid readers, who do not write, that vet all my stuff and between that and my own writer sensibilities I feel the finished work is as good as I can make it. So I simply don't feel a need for paid help. But then again, I'm unpublished in book length form so maybe I'm wrong.
I have thought about editing for a living, but I don't have the credentials to back it up and I can't see hanging out a shingle that says 'pay me' without having the professional chops behind it.
choreographic gerunds? I thought the phrase sounded cool, whatever they are. Little words dancing in unison. ;-)
One of the major reasons people go into therapy as a profession is that they need therapy. And being in therapy is part of their licensing procedure. Not that it helps in some cases.
I have a core critique group that came out of a larger group. We do very well together. We are considering expanding and that means auditioning the new people and getting together to see how our personalities match up.
Travis:
I think a solid critique group is worth its collective weight in gold.
E
Sarah:
My group has been going on, in some way, shape, or form, for 13 years or so. I conference call into Florida for it.
And adding new people is a delicate dance, but it's like anything . . . if you put the group's best interests first . . . it can really be a wonderful opportunity.
E
Stephen:
I have been thinking about what you posted here . . . and you are right. I would NEVER take parenting advice from a non-parent. Not that I don't think people can offer sage wisdom . . . but the trenches of parenthood are where you really learn so much. Many things look or sound fine "in theory." Same thing with critiques . . . you hone them by writing yourself.
E
Well, please correct me if I'm wrong, but most editors are unpublished, right? I mean, I once looked at an editing job, and in big letters, it said, "WRITERS NEED NOT APPLY."
The essay editor I have is brilliant, and I don't think she's published anything. One of my editors rarely, ever, edits, but when she drops a comment or two, I listen up. She was published back in the eighties, and she's had her little pub for over a decade, but she doesn't have time to write anymore (even though she started it so she could write!).
The one previous to new owner just added a ton of commas, turned my dialogue into complete sentences, and there was no STET opportunity. The new one writes a lot, and, I hesitate to say it, but she was finding her feet as an editor. I bet she's found them, now, but she hasn't mentioned a word to me since I only took 2 out of 3 of her comments. *sigh* Live and learn.
I suppose paying someone to edit is a different story, I don't know. About the only person in the world I could imagine paying for an edit would be you, LOL, and I'm having trouble imagining the affording it part. ;-)
Otherwise, I consider editing, at least the developmental sort of editing, to be at least 70% of my needed skill set. If I'm not ready, I'm not ready. Pseudonym published the first thing she wrote, and I'm certain I lose readers everyday when they pick up my early work first. That's not how I want "real name's" career to go.
Those who can't do teach? I mean obviously those who can do, teach, but I think sometimes for some people it's easier to show someone else how to do things than to do those same things yourself. I don't think it means the person is wrong or doesn't know what they're talking about, just that they've got some kind of personal block in their life that prevents them from doing it for themselves, but doesn't prevent them from understanding the concepts and passing them on to other people.
I think it's a bigger risk with those people because without a "I did it, you can do it too" proven track record you're sort of adrift, but I dont' think it automatically means the person doesn't know what they're talking about.
Hi Spy:
I agree . . . some of the greatest editors in the world have never written. I suppose what I have found on the internet are some instance where these people have never worked in publishing . . . and I wonder about what they bring to the table.
E
Hi Zoe:
Good point. I edited long before I published anything but poetry and short stories. I always had an eye for editing other people. I was fortunate enough that when I worked for a major publisher when I was 20, I had to go through a training course, in-house, including 4 weeks doing nothing but proofreading 8 hours a day. Then a couple of days learning about permission and copyrights, then book design . . . it was a crash publishing course. I am eternally grateful . . . it set me on my career path with a good foundation.
E
Wow! I want that job! That sounds cool.
spy:
Best part? Being left alone with stacks of manuscripts all day long.
E
*dreamy sigh*
Spy:
Boy, we book people are pathetic. Dreamy sighs over stacks of paper in a musty cubicle,
LOL!
Here's a site that offers good advice about hiring an editing service.
I belong to a critique group run by two published authors. (its free) I think most of the writing community loves to help each other. I've met quite a few who have helped me just because they're nice (like you!).
I don't think I'd pay for it. And if they weren't published? How much more could they know?
However I have met some who did pay and regretted it.
Erica, I think your old job sounds dreamy too. :)
I have terrific critique partners, but I've some really good critiques, catching the bigger picture problems, from editors. Editors who don't write for publication.
I didn't pay them either. I know someone who paid an editor who mostly publishes men's action books. According to another friend, he took the emotion out of her book.
Hi Aimless:
I agree . . . the writing community is most of the time about the most supportive out there.
E
edie:
Editors specialize . . . that's why sometimes, in my opinion, it's apples and oranges and you have to be careful about what genres they've done.
E
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