So I Walked into a Bookstore . . .
. . . and I bought something new.
That's kind of how my book buying goes.
I may (actually, often) set out to buy something specific. Every time he writes a new book, off I go. Or I will read about a "hot" new physics or mathematic book (WOO! Wild woman!) and I head to the bookstore. That's how, years ago, I bought this book. Oldest Daughter and I love to wander bookstore aisles, buying new writers and classics alike. Youngest Daughter and I head off frequently. She reads on the high school level, so it's tricky to find YA high school-level reading but content-appropriate for a 10-year-old, so we have our work cut out for us. She wanders the kids' area, I wander the science.
With Amazon and Barnes and Noble online, I sometimes oder something off the 'net. But that's not my preferred method. I've started buying books for my iPod, so I browse iTunes a lot.
Which brings me to my real topic. You see, yesterday over at Amy's utterly amazing writing blog, there was a discussion of self-pubbed authors giving big publishers a "black eye" in the comments section. Now, I am utterly motivated to read HER book (and she had kindly let me read a copy when it was released, though for some reason my review didn't show up at Amazon). She's funny as heck and she has a specific platform. But I am not, I have to honestly say, motivated to read very many self-pubbed books. To be honest, I'm not even motivated to read any by this publisher. (I could have picked any of dozens, but I remembered their name.) Or any smaller ones that deal with e-books.
I wondered why. Is it I'm a snob about sloppy editing or ugly covers? (Maybe.) Have I SEEN a lot of really bad self-pubbed stuff (um, yeah, can't be a book editor without people approaching you with some really, really bad iUniverse stuff)? Yeah. That. But I had an ah-ha moment at Amy's blog.
You see, when Amy's blog visitor posted about a "black eye" and people elsewhere have had the same sort of rail against publishing ("My God, but it's like the same five guys get book deals and where does that leave the rest of us!"), I thought about it. And I guess I realized that when I walk into a bookstore, I can choose from THOUSANDS of titles. And chances are obvious that not all of them will be what I am searching for. I want to read this. And my browsing limits itself to anime (for Oldest Son and Youngest Daughter), David Sedaris (for Oldest Daughter), kids (Youngest Daughter), religion (me), and science (me again). I may wander to knitting. I always look at coffee table art books (often on sale!). I've got my shelves that I head to. But again, I COULD, if I wanted, choose from thousands. Thousands with (mostly) decent covers and production values, thousands (mostly) fairly cleanly edited. Thousands by talented people. Some of them HUGELY talented as in the idea that they put a lot of the rest of us to shame. So I am simply NOT MOTIVATED to think, there is nothing in this store for me and now I will turn to the vast array of self-pubbed titles.
Are there exceptions? Sure. Robin's book (visit the Shrink Rap blog) is one. I am sure if a pal of mine had a book out with a very small press, I would be motivated. I think SHE IS A TALENT!
But when it comes down to it, I know that we're all trying to bring our A-game and when someone gets published it represents a breakthrough for them of sorts. An intersection of their A-game and market and luck and the rest of it. And so I know when I walk in that bookstore . . . that's what I'll find for the most part. And I guess it's true when Mark Terry and others say we're competing for readers' time and their budget and all the other entertainment options out there AND we're competing with other books on the shelves. And in the end, I just haven't ever reached a point where I thought . . . "Well, my God, this is ALL just not anything I would read and now I must go in search of more obscure writers on the Internet to read." My motivation for that doesn't exist.
So that's how I feel . . . the motivation . . . not there.
But tell me how you feel? Thoughts?
That's kind of how my book buying goes.
I may (actually, often) set out to buy something specific. Every time he writes a new book, off I go. Or I will read about a "hot" new physics or mathematic book (WOO! Wild woman!) and I head to the bookstore. That's how, years ago, I bought this book. Oldest Daughter and I love to wander bookstore aisles, buying new writers and classics alike. Youngest Daughter and I head off frequently. She reads on the high school level, so it's tricky to find YA high school-level reading but content-appropriate for a 10-year-old, so we have our work cut out for us. She wanders the kids' area, I wander the science.
With Amazon and Barnes and Noble online, I sometimes oder something off the 'net. But that's not my preferred method. I've started buying books for my iPod, so I browse iTunes a lot.
Which brings me to my real topic. You see, yesterday over at Amy's utterly amazing writing blog, there was a discussion of self-pubbed authors giving big publishers a "black eye" in the comments section. Now, I am utterly motivated to read HER book (and she had kindly let me read a copy when it was released, though for some reason my review didn't show up at Amazon). She's funny as heck and she has a specific platform. But I am not, I have to honestly say, motivated to read very many self-pubbed books. To be honest, I'm not even motivated to read any by this publisher. (I could have picked any of dozens, but I remembered their name.) Or any smaller ones that deal with e-books.
I wondered why. Is it I'm a snob about sloppy editing or ugly covers? (Maybe.) Have I SEEN a lot of really bad self-pubbed stuff (um, yeah, can't be a book editor without people approaching you with some really, really bad iUniverse stuff)? Yeah. That. But I had an ah-ha moment at Amy's blog.
You see, when Amy's blog visitor posted about a "black eye" and people elsewhere have had the same sort of rail against publishing ("My God, but it's like the same five guys get book deals and where does that leave the rest of us!"), I thought about it. And I guess I realized that when I walk into a bookstore, I can choose from THOUSANDS of titles. And chances are obvious that not all of them will be what I am searching for. I want to read this. And my browsing limits itself to anime (for Oldest Son and Youngest Daughter), David Sedaris (for Oldest Daughter), kids (Youngest Daughter), religion (me), and science (me again). I may wander to knitting. I always look at coffee table art books (often on sale!). I've got my shelves that I head to. But again, I COULD, if I wanted, choose from thousands. Thousands with (mostly) decent covers and production values, thousands (mostly) fairly cleanly edited. Thousands by talented people. Some of them HUGELY talented as in the idea that they put a lot of the rest of us to shame. So I am simply NOT MOTIVATED to think, there is nothing in this store for me and now I will turn to the vast array of self-pubbed titles.
Are there exceptions? Sure. Robin's book (visit the Shrink Rap blog) is one. I am sure if a pal of mine had a book out with a very small press, I would be motivated. I think SHE IS A TALENT!
But when it comes down to it, I know that we're all trying to bring our A-game and when someone gets published it represents a breakthrough for them of sorts. An intersection of their A-game and market and luck and the rest of it. And so I know when I walk in that bookstore . . . that's what I'll find for the most part. And I guess it's true when Mark Terry and others say we're competing for readers' time and their budget and all the other entertainment options out there AND we're competing with other books on the shelves. And in the end, I just haven't ever reached a point where I thought . . . "Well, my God, this is ALL just not anything I would read and now I must go in search of more obscure writers on the Internet to read." My motivation for that doesn't exist.
So that's how I feel . . . the motivation . . . not there.
But tell me how you feel? Thoughts?
Labels: bookstores
posted by Erica Orloff at 7:57 AM
33 Comments:
Samhain isn't self publishing. It's a fairly large epublisher. Along the lines of Ellora's Cave. It's not for everybody but there is certainly a readerbase for it.
I also think you are thinking from the perspective of someone who shops in brick and mortar stores. I buy almost all my books from Amazon. I know not all people do this, but I know many who do. On Amazon any book that looks good, has good reviews, and that I've heard about from anywhere that looked interesting, is fair game.
First of all, thank you for being part of the fun ruckus that got started over at my blog...it's amazing how that happens isn't it?
For me, my time and budget are limited. I'm also easily distracted. I know nothing in life is certain but when I buy a book I want as sure of a thing as possible, if that makes sense, so I'll go with a something I've heard of, read about, or that's sitting on some "list." I'll also peruse book store aisles just reading back cover copy and get something that feels good in my hands and appeals to me after a page or two.
I buy a lot of books from Amazon as well, but again, it's usually something I am quite sure I'll like. I have a high standard for quality - and I don't mean that I just read literary works. I have a high standard for the popular/commercial fiction that I read. I always want to read something that I can aspire to...something I can get lost in...believe in...learn from.
I also think...I'm prejudiced. I think that if a book isn't published traditionally that there is a reason...usually that it's not good enough, even though there are plenty mainstream books that are just dreck.
I may have to change my thinking there in time, I know that.
I have friends who publish with Samhain, and they are known as one of the better e-pubs. My co-blogger, Liz Kreger, has her second Samhain book, Promise For Tomorrow, in print now. :)
Until the prices of e-book readers go down, I'll stick with print books. I don't like reading on a computer screen, otherwise I'd read more.
I don't usually double post but hey didn't you say to step out the box a few posts back?
I was wandering the web a few weeks ago and came across an author, with a women's fiction/chick lit book to her name - her first. She seemed about my age. I love connecting with people like that. I went to her website. I checked out her book on Amazon.
I loved seeing "This is XX's first major publication."
I emailed and asked her about her experience and continued my cyber-sleuthing. I wanted to know who her agent was, her publisher etc. I make notes about this stuff so that I have reference points when I''m ready.
She was self-pubbed.
I felt duped.
She did reply that she chose not to go the traditional route and was published by Whatever It Was.
She wasn't Published By.
She published herself.
I was annoyed. Not at her choice but at her representing herself as having been published.
You bring up a great point, Erica. The most important thing is location. Are people seeking out what you're selling? And if so, is it possible for you to be highly-ranked for the relevant keywords in the search engines? This awfully-designed site probably turns a great profit, simply because of its location. But how many self-pubbed authors can get nestled with Romance TV, Harlequin, and Mills & Boon, like her?
It's just like any other business: you have to serve a need that's not being met elsewhere. I just don't see how a straight romance self-published online is going to be found. Web success is about niche, not just in books, but in all web business.
I keep going back and forth on whether I should try self-publishing. People do seek out my niche because they can't find enough of it in the stores, and frankly, even if they do, they're often too embarrassed to take it up to the register.
Like I told Zoe, if I self-pubbed, I would design a crappy cover myself (okay, I'd make it as good as I can because I'm a perfectionist). The people seeking just don't care. There's such a need that crappy writing sells, and often. (Even my old stuff sells, to my horror! Even I read the crappy writing because that's all that's there! And I put a TON of care into making my stuff as perfect as possible. With every word I write or read, I am trying with everything I have to be better.)
A friend with fifteen novellas online hasn't written a word in four years, doesn't update her site, does no marketing, and makes a steady $1,000 a month. From the figures the orgs publish, the average author is making half that, and unlike her, not strictly from royalties, and not on a career they abandoned four years ago. Yes, there are many authors who make much more than that.
For me, I'm giving up 50-80% of my royalties to my e-pubs. Which is fine, but I keep wondering that if I actually did some online marketing and self-pubbed, then would I make more?
Ego aside, I just need to make a certain amount of money a year. I could care less about a crappy cover, being respected, or whatever. Am I willing to go to a small press that prints my niche, which has distribution in Borders and professional editing and a professional cover for a $1,000-2,000 advance? With small chances of earning out, and a good chance of going out of print in a couple years? Heck no! My royalties are my only retirement account, at the moment.
If I self-publish, which I'm seriously considering, it will be a financial decision. I'm just not willing to sacrifice income so someone else can put out a higher quality product. I just can't afford it.
Hi Zoe:
I know. I was pointing out that I just don't necessarily purchase that way--it adds a secondary step into my motivation. I know they, Ellora's Cave, Wild Rose, others . . . many, in fact, have whole programs. Just me personally, I don't read in that niche enough to go seek it out.
E
Hi Zoe:
When I go to Amazon, I am generally buying something I know about already, versus browsing. That's why I posted this . . . this is my buying habits, and I think it's something smaller pubs have to overcome--a motivation factor on the part of readers--not ALL readers, but some. That's why I wanted comments. If you go to Amy's blog, I don't feel YET these self-pubbed authors are a "black eye" on publishing--again YET. Because it's a different type of competition/motivation on the part of buyers.
Hi Amy:
I think we're likely similar . . . again, NOT that all commerical is great, or ALL small is bad. Not at all. Not even what I am suggesting. My point is about the motivation of the buyer. I just am WAY to busy to spend time seeking out these smaller places/authors/self-pubbed when I have so much to choose from--much of it excellent or at least in my realm of taste.
E
edie:
I don't read on a computer either, though I do listen to books on tape.
And again, if I KNOW someone who pubbed with a small place, sure I'd support them. But in a mainstream sense, they have to overcome that comfort factor that I and many others are in when it comes to how we buy.
E
Amy:
Hmm . . . I suppose I, too, would feel that way. I have never had that happen to me, but if it's someone I haven't heard of before, I always check who their publisher is. I recently found out someone I know vaguely socially touts himself as an children's book author. So I went and found his books. They are the worst illustrated piece of crap I have ever seen. I was shocked anyone would spend money--hard-earned cash--for this stuff. And this guy just is so consumed with being an author and I wonder "Can you not SEE how insulting this is as a product?"
E
I think the market is much too narrow these days to assume all self published books are crap that "aren't good enough." I enjoy shopping at bookstores myself--especially non-chain stores, where I can still find out of the ordinary fare--but still find time to search out indies; just like I actively seek out indie musicians even while I shop at record stores.
Just a matter of taste, I suppose.
Spy:
You said it a thousand times more succinctly. If it's a niche, then sure . . . but I think just a straight romance, with, say, Nora Roberts or take-your-pick to choose from---hundreds EACH MONTH . . . where's the motivation to go elsewhere? Surely SOMEONE will float your boat.
E
r.j.:
I have thought about this a LOT. There's a KEY difference. Bear with me.
I nearly ONLY listen to indie/alternative music (Ray LaMontagne, The Arcade Fire). But the difference is . . . an indie labeled artist fills a NEED I have for THAT kind of music that I cannot get filled any OTHER way. I.e., if I hate pop (which I do) and that is mainstream and what fills the airwaves, and I simply don't LIKE that . . . then I must fill my need for different music some other way.
Not so with indie books. Because if I want literary fiction--I have hundreds of authors to choose from in a bookstore. If I want romance, vampire, other paranormal, thriller . . . you name it . . . there's a deep talent pool to pick from and so I have no motivation to look elsewhere. My need is being met. Period. Why would I then spend time on the Internet weeding through the bad (of which there's plenty) to find a few indie authors who are very good . . . if I get my need met traditionally. Me personally? I don't have the motivation.
E
Like I said, it's a matter of taste. And if you know where to look, it's not as difficult to weed through the crap as it might seem.
rj:
I am sure. I would think if there was a small publisher (like Samhain or Wild rose) that almost exclusively published a category I sought out, it would seem a no-brainer to order from there. Like if there was a publisher for quirky physics writers who were humorous, I would consistently visit. But that's quite a niche.
;-)
But in general, there's so much that is EASY for me to find and like, I guess I just don't feel any need--the way I do with music.
E
I used to review books for ForeWord Magazine, which is like Publishers Weekly but focuses on independent and self-published bookstores and publishers. My feeling after reviewing a hundred books or so is that the majority of self-published books aren't as good as books published by the big houses and even by the small presses.
Small presses can be a mixed bag and it depends a lot on the press. Some, like Poison Pen Press, have very high quality writing, but I wouldn't say most of them have a commercial quality at all.
They're just an example. It varies.
It does seem to me that although people rag on the quality of the big publishers, that the bar for the quality of their writing is actually pretty high. Once above that bar, it's all over the place, but I do think it's there and it's higher than most self-published books. Not all, just most.
Just my opinion.
As for book buying, I still get tons of books given to me by publishers and publicists, but I buy a lot online, but when I go to the bookstore now I typically peruse the new titles, wander through the nonfiction areas, swing through the YA areas, sometimes the music areas, then hit the writing section just for grins, often the political/history area, then to the real book-buying area, mysteries and thrillers, although these days I also make a swing through the sci-fi/fantasy section.
I guess I'm a little eclectic. Certainly more so than I used to be.
Hey Erica, yeah, I know, I reread your post and then was like "doh" but I couldn't delete. I don't buy ebooks either. But I know they sell pretty well for this genre.
On Amazon, I generally know what i want too. Though occasionally I do browse. I think what I was trying to say is...if I hear about a book on a random blog and it sounds good and it's on Amazon, it doesn't matter who published it. And it doesn't matter if it's the only blog in existence that mentions it. If I want the book, I've heard of it and I go ferret it out on Amazon.
As for the "black eye" I agree that there isn't one "yet" I do think things are changing fast and if more better quality self pubbed books came out, then that could change over the next decade or so with the speed at which technology and buying habits are shifting. Though I don't think traditional publishing would "die" even then. I think the general attitude would just be like it is toward indie bands and indie film makers, that funding from a larger company is nice, but not really necessary for respect or to reach your audience, even if the audience isn't quite as big.
Amy, unfortunately most self pubbers do that "pretend they're published" thing or hide the self publishing thing, because of the attitude already expressed about how self published authors must not be able to get a publisher. You can hardly blame her. When some of the stigma lifts and people realize that although most self published books are dreck, a book that is self published isn't always dreck, nor is it always because they "couldn't get a publisher," then less subterfuge will be necessary.
One of the women in an earlier critique group, not current one, did a self-published book. I bought it since I knew her and two pages into it she stands character in front of mirror and describes self.
Another person from that same critique group self-published a book on Jamestown just before the Big Jamestown celebration. She did fairly well and her story was better edited. She had worked on it for 8 years and she got accepted at most of the bookstores because she had a good story.
Mark:
I think big publishers . . . well, people b*tch about quality at times because we do set the bar pretty high. I wonder if we're all worse (in that regard) because of being writers.
E
A friend of mine would undoubtedly say, in terms of so-called quality, "look, if you compare it to rock or pop music, quality is totally subjective. Are The Rolling Stones 'better' than, say, 'Journey.'? The Stones, for example, tend to be a little loose and raucous, while Journey was tight and harmonic. If you're a classically trained musician looking for those standards, you might prefer Journey. But the Stones offer something less refined, but not worse... or better."
That's the thing about self-pubbed and small presses. They're not necessarily "better" or "worse," because they may serve different audiences.
But from a technical "craft" point of view, I think the big NY publishers have higher standards. And, generally speaking, that's one somewhat objective measure of a "good" book.
Succintly? Erica, you're kind! :-) My first sentence was actually pointing out that you better said what I've been trying to say, lately. I had to delete because I was trying to make my comment shorter. Sad, huh? LOL!
What a good discussion today! Given my RV plans and my new Kindle, I'm pretty done with paper books. It was kinda like how my life changed when I got an iPod, which I was deadset against. I just bagged up all but two shelves of books and dropped them off at a shelter.
I don't miss them a bit! I thought I would. I'm ebook all the way, now! Luckily, a ton of the bookstore books are available for ebook. Even your Heaven one is at Fictionwise, which is cool because I lent it to a friend and she hasn't returned it. :-(
Well, I was reading this blog, and practicing how to make a noose with some hemp. I finally got it right, and slipped it over the chandelier. Just as I was about to kick my chair over I got to the "Robin is an exception part". Boy was that close. Plus, I think my existing will gives custody to our old neighbors who I haven't seen in ten years.
I have to admit that I am hoping to market Shrink Rap, and build my "platform" so that a regular publisher will pick it up. My agent advised me to go this route, although a lot of people told me they thought it was dumb. I love my agent. She submitted the manuscript around, and the main message was "I like it, but who the hell will want to read it? Most people don't think Child Psychiatry is funny." The goal now is to prove it's marketable.
I'm babbling. Thank you for saying my book was an exception. (I'm making a new will ASAP.) I guess what I wanted to say was, some people have a legitimate reason to self pub. Their stuff might be great. I agree that I don't go out of my way to buy indie books unless they fill a niche. (I heart Allora's Cave.) And Amy, that woman didn't tell you she self pubbed because, well, she was embarrassed. Unfortunately, I can relate.
mark:
I agree in that books are totally a matter of taste. But I also agree there's an objective quality matter . . . and big pubs usually have the resources to attain that.
Hi Zoe:
I believe he:
http://www.megsite.com/future_books.htm
self-pubbed his newer books or had some sort of consortium backing his newer ones. Some people are able to spend for big production values. I have met him and have some opinions on why he went that route, but I'll keep my thoughts to myself . . . but yes, I think at some point more may choose to go that way.
E
spy:
Now that I like books on tape (I am a newer convert), I could see maybe choosing a Kindle one day too.
E
robin:
You are very talented and so funny, and I do think your book is one that a traditional publisher might not know how to market off the bat. It's a niche and tricky to shelve--the typical marketer would say--"So who's the audience?"
Have you thought of taking a more generalist approach rather than a "shrink" approach and using your shrink credentials as your star power/expert platform? I was the consultant for this book:
http://www.amazon.com/First-Aid-Tantrums-Kathy-Levinson/dp/1885843046
She got on the Today show and GMA (this was a while ago).
You could do it more from a "Ripping Your Hair Out: Practical Solutions for x, y, and z Problems with a clever one-liner here"--and use being a shrink to vault you into expert category.
Just one thought (among many) . . . if you went that route, I know a few places you might try/contacts.
Either way . . . I think your book and your writing style is great.
E
Thanks Erica. Excellent advice! I might bug you for the "where to go" thoughts...
Hey Erica,
I think the people with the strongest "shot" with self publishing actually are the people who've already been traditionally published. Because they have SOME reader base. Especially if they've managed to find ways to stay in touch/connected with the strongest parts of said base.
Robin:
Just email me at my site:
erica@ericaorloff.com
E
zoe:
You know, I think if there was a story I adored that I couldn't find a publisher for (too quirky or niche) I could see doing it as a download.
E
Well if for some reason they don't publish the demon baby tales, you KNOW we all want that!
zoe:
Thanks!
E
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